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	<description>&#34;We have done this because we love liberty and hate authority.&#34; - Voltairine de Cleyre</description>
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		<title>Comment on Dual Paths&#8230; by corrupt wall street news</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/08/dual-paths/comment-page-1/#comment-818</link>
		<dc:creator>corrupt wall street news</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Aug 2011 21:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=418#comment-818</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Breaking Geopolitical News...&lt;/strong&gt;

Dual Paths&#8230; &#171; On ALLiance...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Breaking Geopolitical News&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Dual Paths&#8230; &laquo; On ALLiance&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Ross Kenyon</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-789</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Kenyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 20:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-789</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the thoughtful response!  I think it&#039;s pretty cool that you&#039;re an ancap but understand what it&#039;s like to face a political economy from the perspective you&#039;ve described.  Oftentimes I don&#039;t feel as if they understand this very well.  Cheers to you for having a nuanced position on the topic!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thoughtful response!  I think it&#8217;s pretty cool that you&#8217;re an ancap but understand what it&#8217;s like to face a political economy from the perspective you&#8217;ve described.  Oftentimes I don&#8217;t feel as if they understand this very well.  Cheers to you for having a nuanced position on the topic!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Ross Kenyon</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-788</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Kenyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 20:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-788</guid>
		<description>Easy there.  I&#039;m not trying to pit libertarians against each other. I&#039;d like to see everyone understand each other and why there actually is a divide along these lines.  This is no creation of my own accord but is pretty visible if you read from both traditions.  You might not like class methodology but it can be valuable and poignant.  Very few people identify as a pure atomistic individual of their own primordial and existential creation.  People are often (internally and externally) defined by various memberships in different communities and sectors of society and this identification has some influence of how we play politics outside of pure rational deduction or impartial empirical analysis. This principle applied to libertarianism makes sense and has some explanatory power, but by no means is it everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Easy there.  I&#8217;m not trying to pit libertarians against each other. I&#8217;d like to see everyone understand each other and why there actually is a divide along these lines.  This is no creation of my own accord but is pretty visible if you read from both traditions.  You might not like class methodology but it can be valuable and poignant.  Very few people identify as a pure atomistic individual of their own primordial and existential creation.  People are often (internally and externally) defined by various memberships in different communities and sectors of society and this identification has some influence of how we play politics outside of pure rational deduction or impartial empirical analysis. This principle applied to libertarianism makes sense and has some explanatory power, but by no means is it everything.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Dual Paths&#8230; by Earnestine</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/08/dual-paths/comment-page-1/#comment-787</link>
		<dc:creator>Earnestine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2011 19:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=418#comment-787</guid>
		<description>$articlesummary</description>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Cal</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-785</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2011 05:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-785</guid>
		<description>Right, great, let&#039;s impose 19th century class warfare rhetoric on modern libertarianism, divide libertarians by &quot;working class&quot; according to obsolete economic dogma, pit libertarians against each other using nonsensical statist terms of &quot;left vs. right,&quot; and replace clear concepts and logical arguments with personal identity and group loyalty signals. Do that. Inject popular libertarianism with enough vacuous bullshit and then maybe I can move beyond wasting my time trying to promote libertarian ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, great, let&#8217;s impose 19th century class warfare rhetoric on modern libertarianism, divide libertarians by &#8220;working class&#8221; according to obsolete economic dogma, pit libertarians against each other using nonsensical statist terms of &#8220;left vs. right,&#8221; and replace clear concepts and logical arguments with personal identity and group loyalty signals. Do that. Inject popular libertarianism with enough vacuous bullshit and then maybe I can move beyond wasting my time trying to promote libertarian ideas.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Mike Finger</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-768</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Finger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 01:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-768</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;ve hit on a lot of interesting points here, Ross. This is well of the beaten path of libertarian theory and definitely worth considering.

A study by CommonWealth Magazine awhile back grouped the US into 10 cultural regions (summary: http://chasblogspot.blogspot.com/2007/09/really-cool-political-map-of-usa.html). What was interesting about the study, when I looked at the data, was that areas considered less statist also had more income equality.

I think many libertarians chafe at the idea that income equality is a desirable end goal, but I suspect that it is symptomatic of a more voluntary society.

Very few people enjoy working as serfs, so they will become entrepreneurs if the opportunity is available. And a catallaxy teeming with would-be entrepreneurs makes it very difficult for existing &#039;owners of the means of production&#039; to sustain windfall profits – unless they are providing a service that substantially outclasses (excuse the pun) all their competitors. [I would consider Apple a prime example of this.]

It is true that the poor have the most to lose from statism, so I expect their revolutionary urgency will be a great asset to the liberty movement... as it is in the Middle East right now. It&#039;s just important for us well-educated, bourgie folks to spread memes that help people help themselves.

Anyway, thoughtful essay. Keep &#039;em coming.

Respectfully,
Mike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;ve hit on a lot of interesting points here, Ross. This is well of the beaten path of libertarian theory and definitely worth considering.</p>
<p>A study by CommonWealth Magazine awhile back grouped the US into 10 cultural regions (summary: <a href="http://chasblogspot.blogspot.com/2007/09/really-cool-political-map-of-usa.html" rel="nofollow">http://chasblogspot.blogspot.com/2007/09/really-cool-political-map-of-usa.html</a>). What was interesting about the study, when I looked at the data, was that areas considered less statist also had more income equality.</p>
<p>I think many libertarians chafe at the idea that income equality is a desirable end goal, but I suspect that it is symptomatic of a more voluntary society.</p>
<p>Very few people enjoy working as serfs, so they will become entrepreneurs if the opportunity is available. And a catallaxy teeming with would-be entrepreneurs makes it very difficult for existing &#8216;owners of the means of production&#8217; to sustain windfall profits – unless they are providing a service that substantially outclasses (excuse the pun) all their competitors. [I would consider Apple a prime example of this.]</p>
<p>It is true that the poor have the most to lose from statism, so I expect their revolutionary urgency will be a great asset to the liberty movement&#8230; as it is in the Middle East right now. It&#8217;s just important for us well-educated, bourgie folks to spread memes that help people help themselves.</p>
<p>Anyway, thoughtful essay. Keep &#8216;em coming.</p>
<p>Respectfully,<br />
Mike</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Helio</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-766</link>
		<dc:creator>Helio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2011 00:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-766</guid>
		<description>&quot;No one likes to think of the grand ideas they hold about how the world ought to operate as being formed from within oneself as an egoistic expression of material desire and personal gain.&quot;

That is the whole point of society.

This topic has become very dear to my heart as I fit awkwardly into the categorical proletariat class.  Although I don&#039;t identify with such abstractions, in my daily interactions at work, the theme of absolute subordination is the order of the day.

The whole working arrangement is anti-cooperative because fundamentally, it seems workers want to be self directing.  I know I do.  I want the privilege to tell the boss &#039;No, that is a retarded task and I&#039;m not going to waste my time on it.&quot;  That is what it boils down to.  People don&#039;t like being ordered around, even for a paycheck. 

I don&#039;t call myself a Left Libertarian, however.  I&#039;m as an-cap as they come because I make no distinction between labor and capital.  Labor is capital, of a peculiar nature.  I simply think the nature of the labor/capital relationship is skewed because of state meddling.  Should that end, laborers may have more options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No one likes to think of the grand ideas they hold about how the world ought to operate as being formed from within oneself as an egoistic expression of material desire and personal gain.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is the whole point of society.</p>
<p>This topic has become very dear to my heart as I fit awkwardly into the categorical proletariat class.  Although I don&#8217;t identify with such abstractions, in my daily interactions at work, the theme of absolute subordination is the order of the day.</p>
<p>The whole working arrangement is anti-cooperative because fundamentally, it seems workers want to be self directing.  I know I do.  I want the privilege to tell the boss &#8216;No, that is a retarded task and I&#8217;m not going to waste my time on it.&#8221;  That is what it boils down to.  People don&#8217;t like being ordered around, even for a paycheck. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t call myself a Left Libertarian, however.  I&#8217;m as an-cap as they come because I make no distinction between labor and capital.  Labor is capital, of a peculiar nature.  I simply think the nature of the labor/capital relationship is skewed because of state meddling.  Should that end, laborers may have more options.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Ross Kenyon</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-764</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Kenyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 22:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-764</guid>
		<description>Hey, LJ. Thanks for the kind words.

Well, I found most of the people who exemplify this trend in the ALLiance of the Left Libertarian/Center for a Stateless Society orbit. Most of them are wage earners or academic allies and it definitely influences how and why they think the way that they do. They’re a weird group though because it is very syncretic; drawing influences from the classical liberal tradition as well as the socialist tradition.

“Libertarian Feminism: Can This Marriage be Saved?” is one of my favorite essays of all time. It is incredibly poignant and I wish more libertarians would read it. Charles Johnson writes on the topic quite a bit at http://www.radgeek.com, though that essay is a big one. http://all-left.net has essays on feminism in the same thick vein which goes beyond the sort of equality before the law obsession which libertarians go on about and instead focuses on changing culture away from oppressive and undesirable non-violations of the Non-Aggression Principle. Just because it isn’t active assault doesn’t mean we should just not care how we treat one another, especially if it means making people feel excluded or less than fully autonomous.

I’d definitely parouse their footnotes in that essay and see where that takes you as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, LJ. Thanks for the kind words.</p>
<p>Well, I found most of the people who exemplify this trend in the ALLiance of the Left Libertarian/Center for a Stateless Society orbit. Most of them are wage earners or academic allies and it definitely influences how and why they think the way that they do. They’re a weird group though because it is very syncretic; drawing influences from the classical liberal tradition as well as the socialist tradition.</p>
<p>“Libertarian Feminism: Can This Marriage be Saved?” is one of my favorite essays of all time. It is incredibly poignant and I wish more libertarians would read it. Charles Johnson writes on the topic quite a bit at <a href="http://www.radgeek.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.radgeek.com</a>, though that essay is a big one. <a href="http://all-left.net" rel="nofollow">http://all-left.net</a> has essays on feminism in the same thick vein which goes beyond the sort of equality before the law obsession which libertarians go on about and instead focuses on changing culture away from oppressive and undesirable non-violations of the Non-Aggression Principle. Just because it isn’t active assault doesn’t mean we should just not care how we treat one another, especially if it means making people feel excluded or less than fully autonomous.</p>
<p>I’d definitely parouse their footnotes in that essay and see where that takes you as well.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Ross Kenyon</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-763</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Kenyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 22:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-763</guid>
		<description>Fair enough, Tom.  You definitely have a point, but this essay wasn&#039;t trying to do too much revisionism. If I focused on that I&#039;d have to make an entirely separate case which would elongate and complicate the thesis.  I tend to agree with you though. Glad you enjoyed it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, Tom.  You definitely have a point, but this essay wasn&#8217;t trying to do too much revisionism. If I focused on that I&#8217;d have to make an entirely separate case which would elongate and complicate the thesis.  I tend to agree with you though. Glad you enjoyed it!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Class Divide in Libertarian Politics by Thomas L. Knapp</title>
		<link>http://alliance.rationalreview.com/2011/07/the-class-divide-in-libertarian-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-762</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas L. Knapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 17:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alliance.rationalreview.com/?p=341#comment-762</guid>
		<description>Interesting piece, Ross!

I hate to open with an objection, but it&#039;s the first thing that popped out at me:

I don&#039;t consider left-libertarian ideas to be &quot;divergences&quot; from some mythical &quot;standard libertarian politics.&quot;

&lt;em&gt;If&lt;/em&gt; there is a &quot;standard libertarian politics&quot; from which one or more strains are &quot;divergences,&quot; then I&#039;d posit the early 19th century class analysis of Comte/Dunoyer et. al and the &quot;left libertarianism&quot; that descends from it as the &quot;standard,&quot; and the late-20th century rightward revisions of e.g. the Randians and Rothbardians as the &quot;divergences.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting piece, Ross!</p>
<p>I hate to open with an objection, but it&#8217;s the first thing that popped out at me:</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t consider left-libertarian ideas to be &#8220;divergences&#8221; from some mythical &#8220;standard libertarian politics.&#8221;</p>
<p><em>If</em> there is a &#8220;standard libertarian politics&#8221; from which one or more strains are &#8220;divergences,&#8221; then I&#8217;d posit the early 19th century class analysis of Comte/Dunoyer et. al and the &#8220;left libertarianism&#8221; that descends from it as the &#8220;standard,&#8221; and the late-20th century rightward revisions of e.g. the Randians and Rothbardians as the &#8220;divergences.&#8221;</p>
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